Og her er endelig Harvey Steins begrunnelse. Ingen kommentarer fra min side - jeg må la dette synke inn litt først, og se hvor det bærer hen. Denne her er lang, men de som har lyst kan lese.
det kan forresten og leses på avsim sine forum på denne http://www.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&omm=0&om=626&forum=DCForumID27" TARGET=_blank>URLen
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"Harvey Stein Responds"
<< This document was received from Harvy Stein in Email at 17:21 EDT today>>>
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Good Day Users.
First I want to say that Tom Allensworth got some and confirmed allot of his information from me. He kept true to his word by not making my name public at the time, but I cannot let him take heat for information that was printed and was confirmed by me.
Let me start off by saying that Randy and his wonderful wife Sherry have and still are (hopefully) friends of ours. The most difficult part of this situation is that the four of us have a personal friendship and Randy and I had a "business" relationship at Satco. Let me assure you all that everything I say here now can be backed up by documentation if necessary. I have been in touch with several of the persons with whom I have had contact with in this matter and so far only one has asked not to reveal his name or information. That is fair enough to me and I will abide by his wishes. I will attempt to give you a timeline of events based on the emails sent and received. I will not post these emails but you will have to take my word that they exist. There is some personal information in some of these emails that does not have anything to do with this situation. I will make them available to a neutral third party for verification if necessary.
Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I have never publicly accused Randy of anything and I am not accusing him of anything now. I am just giving a timeline of events and some questions I would like answered. This may help those of you who want to know why I resigned from Satco.
Since March of 2001 I have received many questions on the status of donations while online. My stock answer was, Randy is taking care of them and will report when any money is dispersed. I would point them in the direction of the Satusa donation site. As more questions came in I got to thinking, why haven't we seen an accounting of donations. At that point in time, several members chatted me online asking where to donate. I suggested to them to hang on to their donations at this time as I was working on a "project". Other staff members were also getting questions and answering them the best they could. On April 25, 2001 a staff member and I were chatting on PC and the subject of bank statements came up. We started comparing notes and came to the conclusion that Randy had to provide documentation to the users. It was the only way to stop the questions.
Randy received an email on this date and included in the email was a request that the donation records be made available to some Satco HQ staff members for 1. To verify the records and 2. To take alot of the responsibility off of Randy's shoulders. It was suggested that keeping business records in one persons hand is not a good practice. On Thursday April 26, 2001 an email was received with a response.
Here is a link to download the excel spreadsheet provided to me by Randy. The names and any identifying information has been removed but all comments from the donors are there.
http://members.home.net/jastein/satco_donations.htm"'>http://members.home.net/jastein/satco_donations.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://members.home.net/jastein/satco_donations.htm
The response included some comments from Randy stating " I find it odd, that out of the few who have donated, none of them to date have asked for any type of information." I should, at this point, state, that at least 80 donations were made based on an excel spreadsheet provided to me by Randy. On this sheet, only
Paypal donations showed up. A further comment stated was "They have been satisfied so far with the explanations I have posted. Once we expend the funds, then that information will be posted for people to see. However, as I have explained several times, we have not expended any significant amount yet." I was led to believe that NO money has been expended.
On Friday April 27 2001 I received an email from Randy. The initial comment was " It's obvious that these free-will donations all came with strings. Sometime in the next day or two, I will be pulling the account data that the funds are stored in, and will send them to you, so you can verify that the funds are in fact, in place and holding. FWIW, I am sending you a copy of the file. It is a download of the account where the funds are being held. Thought you might like to see that."
Further on Friday April 27 2001 another email exchange was made. In this exchange with another staff member who was also questioning the accounting the final line from Randy is. "I am forwarding copies of the bank statement to Harvey for review. Perhaps that will solve the concern." As of this date, no statements have ever been made available to me at anytime, except the items posted by Randy for download.
A final email was exchanged on Friday April 27. Since I wrote it there is nothing but the recipients name removed and a couple of lines with comments I prefer not to make public.
" I've opened up the file Randy sent. On the donation web page it shows donations to Jan 16, 2001 of about 3,000 dollars. Yet this chart that Randy sent only shows donations up to Jan 16, 2001 of 1448.00 Dollars. Harv.
PS. He is sending me only the last bank statement. Not sure why I can't see them all !!.
PSS Oops, almost forgot. He is considering putting me on cheque signing authority. His comment was,
the users all trust you but its obvious they don't trust me."
During the next 5-6 days there were many emails passed back and forth from various staff members and others who had been asked questions. In my opinion nothing of any real significant information.
On Wed. May 2 I received an informative email from Randy giving me reasons why his bank says that 2 signature accounts are not an option for "non-profit organizations" anymore because of costs involved and is only offered to large accounts. From what I knew Satco was never registered as a non-profit organization. Randy goes on to say that every quarter or 6 months he would gather up what ever transactions have occurred, photocopy them and send them to me for a review. I struggled with a quarterly report and a 6 month report was out of the question. I really wanted a monthly report. Further information on the possibility of having to pay professional fees was talked about for Satco. Later on in the day more emails were exchanged and I was getting totally frustrated because Randy was not dealing with my questions. He was dancing around my issues. I was asking for statements and records; not why we couldn't have a dual signature account.
Finally on May 2, 2001 I sent this email to him. My frustration was at its peak. Complete email except for a XXXXX in reference to another member.
From:
Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>
Organization: SATCO
To: Randy Whistler <rwhistler@kscable.com>
References: 1
Randy, what I need now is the banking records from the day the donations were started to now. Honestly, there are some discrepancies in the document you sent me. On the donation page which was last updated on Jan 18, it shows approx. 3000 dollars donated. On the page you sent me it shows approx. 2950 less fees. That would lead me to believe that there have been no donations since Jan 18 and yet your sheet shows approx. $1270.00 donated between Jan 18 and Apr 26. I can't explain that no matter how I look at it. I honestly don't think XXXX started this. If he received the emails from his members that I have received then there is a lot of questions that have to be answered. My own thoughts are, any member in good standing deserves the right to see the records. Everyone knows about donations but no one has seen any reconciliation of the "books".
Words only go so far, what people want is documentation and I have to agree with them. The longer this goes being unresolved the more questions are going to be asked. I have no problem putting my name and reputation on the line if I'm convinced that everything balances to the penny. I will go to the users and state that I am satisfied with the accounting being done and will verify all monies are accounted for. You may ask why the users come to me. Well its because I'm always there for them and they are comfortable talking to me. They know I won't betray their trust. There is allot of talk out there and allot of users are getting hyper over the lack of accountability which goes along with any organization. I myself have been asked to account for the dollars as most feel HQ shares all information. As you know I have no information other than what you have shared with me. If you want I can open a SATCO account here. There is no charge for this and dual signature cheques are not a problem. The records will be available to any member that wants them and I can post the monthly statements where ever you want me to. Would it be a problem for you to photocopy and fax or scan all your copies of the SATCO bank statements and send them to me since the beginning of the donations? I would hope its not a problem. We can look at other options after the membership has received documentation. As your Deputy Director I should be involved in all matters
of SATCO including this. Randy, now please understand, this has NOTHING to do with our personal friendship, it is strictly SATCO business.
Hugs to Sherry and Megan,
Harv.
Randy responded to me shortly afterwards with this email dated Wed May 2, 2001
Subject:
RE: Banking stuff
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:12:16 -0500
From: "Randy Whistler" <rwhistler@kscable.com>
To: "Harv Stein" <harveys@home.com>
I'm on my way out the door, but wanted to clear something up. The spreadsheet I sent you is only partial. That's out of the PayPal account. I was sending that out asking if it was what xxxxx was looking for, trying to understand what xxxxxxx was wanting. You have to understand another thing. I have kept records, but there is a lot of traffic on the SATCO account that does not reflect the donations issue, things that I have put money in for to pay for things that have no exposure to the donation issue.
I never envisioned there would be any problem and so did not separate them out, as I probably should have. As you can see, this complicates things significantly due to the mixed nature of the traffic. While I don't have any problem with the donation issue, I do not see that it's anyone's business how much money I have put into the organization. If you have any ideas how to sort that out, then I'll be happy to hear it. I'm working on that, though, so maybe I'll come up with a solution between now and then. FWIW, our offices are moving now, so I don't have ready access to a FAX machine like I used to. I have to go to the other building to send a FAX, and haven't had time to get there yet. . . . . . I can scan stuff and send it to you if you like. Otherwise, it will be snail mail or FAX when I can get access to the machine. Do you think that we should no longer accept donations? Quite frankly, I do not think that what little has been gained has been worth the effort, hassle and trouble. . .
Will write more later. . gotta run now.
Randy
Again Randy had promised to send me documentation of some sort but nothing has ever arrived. At this point in time a couple of emails were sent out to other members asking for the paypal button and the mailing address for donations to be removed from the donation site and to suspend the receipt of any donations at this time. In another email Randy agreed to call me so we could talk about this situation rather than pass emails all over cyberspace.
This next email on Wed May 2, 2001 was my comments to another staff member who was involved in this situation.
Other than the name xxxxx out everything is as it was.
Subject:
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:24:37 -0400
From: Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>
Organization: SATCO
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx here is Randy's response. It seems we are at an impasse. Not looking good and I don't know where to go from here. He has admitted to taking money out for his "own" expenses. Gee I wonder how much money we are all "owed" for "expenses" over the years. The only answer seems to poll the users and find out how much was donated to the best of our ability. If you want to back out, I fully understand.
Harv.
Wed May 2 2001 My response to Randy's email regarding the
partial donation list and a suggestion and
an agreement with Randy's suggestion.
Subject: Re: Banking stuff
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:10:06 -0400
From: Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>
Organization: SATCO
To: Randy Whistler <rwhistler@kscable.com>
References: 1
Ok no prob on the partial donation list. Maybe we should just refund all donations to all donors on your list and be through with it. Then this nonsense will stop. That would clear the books. We can also as you suggested stop all donations which I think is a great idea. When ever money gets involved there are always problems. Get back to me when able.
Harv.
Thurs May 3, 2001 Randy and I played phone tag but I received an email from him attempting to answer my questioning of the approx. 3000 figure that the paypal spreadsheet he sent me was showing. I honestly at this point I couldn't figure out quite what Randy was saying but here is the email. A couple of personal lines have been omitted that do not figure into the situation.
RE: Banking stuff
Date:
Thu, 3 May 2001 14:39:30 -0500
From:
"Randy Whistler" <rwhistler@kscable.com>
To:
"Harv Stein" <harveys@home.com>
OK, I'm an idiot. . .I misread your message. I thought it said you would be IN your office between 2 and 4. . not UNTIL 2. . my bad. . . that's what I get for trying to read too quickly and assuming I knew what you said. So, for now, I'll go through here and answer some of the questions posted here, so you can have more information. I'll be in my office till later this afternoon if you get back, if not we'll touch base tomorrow. On the donation page which was last updated on Jan 18, it shows approx. 3000 dollars I don't maintain the donation page,
Ron Lemke does. I have passed him updates as they occurred and the number posted on that page accurately reflects the dollars received, but not the date it was updated. I cannot explain that any further. Keep in mind, also that the approx. $3,000 showing on that page probably reflects the non-cash donation made by Mike Hayden. I don't know how much he spent getting the SE USA box online and operational, but I suspect it was at least $500. That figure was included when I sent the update to Ron, as I recall, but I don't remember now. I have sent Mike, Ron and xxxx a message (copied you also) asking them to remove the donation information from their pages. No response has arrived as of yet, and last I checked the pages had not been altered either. I understand what you're saying about the members seeing the records, but I don't agree that anyone should be able to. Those who have donated, OK, that I can see, but just someone who wants to pry, no. However, that is just a personal feeling that I bear, so that won't stand in the way of progress. Now let's talk about the donation process. There are two methods, by P.O. Box or by PayPal, which you know. When this whole
thing first started, at the time, someone asked if there was a way to donate. I cannot remember who now, I talked to so many people. May have been Mike, Ron, xxxxxx, or any number of other people. When this first came up, I had already been using PayPal personally for auctions and sales on the Internet. It was an easy way to pay for things you bought on places like EBay, etc., without having to fight with money orders, cashiers checks, etc. It was also an easy way to accept payments from people I sold things to, since I didn't have to fight any of the BS involved with payments. Worked out very well. As you and I discussed last year also, it would be an easy way to accept the banquet fees for the convention, without going through the hassle you and I did for the last two years. When this thing came up, someone asked about how those with CC's could donate. At that time, I said we didn't have a way to accept them. Someone mentioned PayPal, and the thought dawned on me that I could use the account I had set up. . . did not even think it through any further, just thought I had it all set up and ready to go so didn't think any further at all. Any checks/money orders/whatever that came in were
deposited directly into the SATCO account, the same one where I pay the web site billing, legal fees, etc., out of. When checks were received, we deposited them into the account and did not record who they came from or the amounts they were for. I'm not sure if there is any way to go back and try to determine where those checks came from. I do have some records on that, but they will be sketchy at best. That's my bad again, it never dawned on me that this would become some sort of issue at all. I thought that people who were sending in
money were being generous, helping us out so we could have some funds to make things happen when needed. I should also point out that I have very little experience with accepting donations or any non-profit fund raising. . .During the course of this whole thing, it never even dawned on me that we should split out any donations received into separate accounts, or I would have done that long ago. I suppose I'm a little too trusting, because I thought that people who were donating were trying to help out and understood the situation, but that's my bad call. I should have never accepted them at all. As soon as I have time, and can get everything together, I am going to start the refund process. This will take some time, as I have to sort through a lot of crap to figure out who has donated what, particularly the checks. I will have to sort out the banquet fees we've received and deposited in the bank, as well as the fees that are in PayPal for banquet payments, and get them moved out so they aren't affected. Once that's done we'll begin refunding donations I guess. I knew the donation thing was way too good to be true. Once again, those of us who pay for this entire organization are stuck with the costs, regardless of what they are and who incurs them. Yes, I'm hurt by this whole thing. I guess really crushes me is the whole thing. This is the same crap we went through with JD and Allensworth last year around this time. . . .We'll talk about this tomorrow. I'm really depressed with this whole thing, Harv. I thought we were doing something good, not bad. Granted I didn't have a clue what to do or how to do it, and I probably did a lot of things wrong. This is just another situation like all the rest, not unlike the convention planning. Lots of people saying what we should do, how we should do it, etc., but when it comes down to actually helping out, there is no one there.
Randy
At this point in time I was frazzled. I needed documents from Randy. He had told me in several emails that statements and other paperwork would be coming. I went over and over the emails over the past couple of days. Finally I had had enough. Below is my final email to Randy. My frustration was at its peak and you can see that in my letter to him.
Subject:
Re: Banking stuff
Date:
Thu, 03 May 2001 18:20:56 -0400
From:
Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>
Organization:
SATCO
To:
Randy Whistler <rwhistler@kscable.com>
References:
1
Ok bro, here is the solution. Open up another SATCO bank account marked donations. Simple to do.
Take all the money that was donated and is sitting in your other account(s).
Deposit this money into the new account named Donations. There is now a clean bank statement showing the donations.
You should have an accurate record from Paypal knowing how much was deposited for donations as the money for the convention just started coming in and can easily be separated out. All the rest should be from donations as I'm not aware of any other sources of funds coming in. We can find out approx. how much in cheques came in. Take the cheque total and the paypal total and deposit it into the new account. Now there is no personal information to be revealed. I don't know of any money that has been spent so far, therefore all monies accounted for. Only a couple hrs of work tops. Make sense. ? If you have spent some of the funds for God sake let someone know. The biggest problem is secrecy. That is causing a large part of the problem now as I see it. I never gave this any thought until I started getting questioned on it and then my wheels started turning. I would think, why isn't Randy sharing any info with me
or us at HQ. This is SATCO money not Randy money. I would continue to think, why is it so difficult for Randy to produce the statements if he wanted to. I had no answers until this came up. There is a moral issue here as well. Its an element of trust. Trust between you and us (the users). If that trust is betrayed in any way then our purpose here is over. That money you have received was for server purchases as stated on the donation page. If you bought a server for satco then all the other server owners who donate their boxes should be given xxxxx number of dollars as well. I was always under the
impression that everything was voluntary and no one was to be reimbursed for anything unless SATCO came into some large amount of money, then all server owners or web pages hosters share equally. For every hour you have put into SATCO I can match it. I want nothing but the satisfaction of knowing I did the best I could for everyone. If I could not afford the money or the time to participate then I wouldn't. I personally feel left out of alot of things you do. Why I'm not sure. There should be nothing you do for SATCO that I'm not included in, that's what a Deputy Director is for. A quick phone call or an email saying xxxxxxx. You may have started SATCO but there are many of us that have just as much of a vested interest in SATCO as you do, me included.
I'm really troubled by all this as none of this was necessary had you shared all information with us. You are just as accountable to all users as we are, even more so. I was pissed before, now I just want to leave.
Harv.
That was the last email I sent to Randy. He called me later on the phone and we talked for at least
an hour maybe two hours. Obviously I cannot document that phone call but I can try my best to relate it to you.
There was some family chit chat and some pleasant conversation and then we started to talk about the donations. Randy is a wonderful talker but I was in no mood to listen. I wanted results and not excuses. Randy again told me that the donations came with no strings attached and I told him that donations always come with accountability attached. I talked about morality, trust of the users, and Randy agreed. We talked about how the "little club" has grown into 45,000 registered users. He tried to explain why he did not include me in many issues. I was the new Dep Director on the block and he had to get used to me and my personality being there. Ray and I are totally different people. We again talked about opening up a totally new account named Satco Donations and depositing all the money that was shown on the paypal statement plus the cheques which Randy figured was around 500.00 dollars. I told him it would take 10 minutes to open an account, deposit the money in the account and get a deposit slip and post it on the webpage for all to see. I would have been happy with that and hopefully the users would have as well. At that point I offered myself to come to Topeka and sit down with him and go over the books. He laughed and said we could find better things to do than "do the books". I was serious and he was joking. I strongly suggested to Randy that he bring all books, statements, documents etc. to the convention so that anybody there could see a total accounting. He thought that was a great idea and agreed. Near the end of the conversation I was feeling a bit more confident that statements would be either faxed or sent to me via snail mail as he said he would do again. Until I resigned which was about a month after this phone call, nothing was forthcoming to me either by fax, mail, email scanned docs, downloads. Nothing.
At no time was I made aware that there were deaths in his family. I would have thought that he would have sent all his HQ staff emails to that effect, just so that they could "look after the house". Towards the end of May I received a link showing the Cafe.com site where Randy was setting up a store to sell T shirts Mugs etc. No one told me that is was not in place yet. I even clicked on the purchase link and the checkout link. All were active. Since I had not heard from Randy in almost a month I figured he didn't want to talk to me anymore so I just gave the link to others for opinions. I was livid. It looked like Randy was going to sell this stuff and just pocket the money for himself. I figured we ALL built Satco, why should one person profit from it. Another staff member contacted me and said he knew about the site and he was asked to view it for content and ideas. I don't think any other HQ member knew it existed. This other staff member was talking to Randy and then he called me. He told me that Randy admitted that the site was for profit only and that profit was strictly Randy's.
Again I have no docs to back this up, only the memory from the conversation. Should the member who told me like to come forward and confirm this statement, please do so. If not, I understand.
Five weeks go by and no communication from Randy on this matter and nothing received in
any fashion with regards to documents or statements.
The day of resignation was like any other day. Wed June 6, 2001. I was playing with my grandson Tyler on the computer and received an email from Randy asking me if I told xxxxxx about what we had discussed. After a month goes by and now I get an email from Randy asking this question. I went ballistic.!! Here we are a month later and NOTHING has been received by me in any fashion from Randy and he had the gall to ask me if I told someone about "our arrangement". Of course I did. This gentlemen had sent another request to Randy for information and wanted to know when things were going to happen. That was it for me. I couldn't get anywhere with Randy. I was at a total standstill, I had done everything to try and get him to produce some verifiable documentation for over 5-6 weeks and Nothing. The rest is history.
In conclusion I would like to say, Randy you have always been a friend and I hope our friendship can continue in some way. These issues are strictly business. I needed answers and got nothing. I didn't want talk anymore I wanted action. I read the comments from the users. A young lad donates 10.00 and apologizes for not being able to donate more !!! Another young person donates 3.00 dollars. All the money he had. It broke my heart to see these people giving up their dollars and now I couldn't get a proper accounting of that money. Someone has to look out for their interests and "watch over them" I took the lead as I should have, being the Deputy Director. I had to protect them. Maybe its the Father in me, I just don't know. Judy and I have 4 healthy grown sons and our grandson Tyler. I would only hope that if they were in the same position as these young people and others alike that someone would watch
over them and "protect" them as well.
A professional looked over the bank statements that you posted and here is his remarks.
He has no problem giving his name and title. George Marinakis Attorney at law.
I solicited from Richard Jenkins Managed Care Financial Analyst
and from Jonathon Reid University Student some questions that may
help clear up this matter.
Harvey,
I saw the announcement that bank statements were posted showing all
transactions taking place from November 14, 2000 through May 11, 2001.
I have downloaded these statements and have gone over them carefully.
My first observation is that they are unlike any official statements
that I've ever seen. The statements don't contain the name of the bank
at the top and there's no logo of any kind. I can't recall a bank, from
huge regional and national banks to the smallest of savings and loans,
which did not personalize their statements in some way with their name
or logo--much like any company would do with it's letterhead. Utilizing
"letterhead" and official stationary is one way to ensure the
authenticity of a document. If anything, these statements appear to be
a quick summary of an account--much like the summaries which you could
obtain from a branch manager. If that is the case here, then that
raises further questions as to why original statements were not
provided? It is common practice to maintain bank statements for record
purposes, oftentimes for years. In this instance, original statements
were not provided for the account even as recently as a few weeks ago
(May 11, 2001). These documents just don't look right and would
certainly not be acceptable statements to any type of reviewing
authority.
As we have discussed on numerous occasions, another problem with these
statements is that on their own, they don't prove or disprove anything.
The reason why is that Mr. Whistler has had exclusive access to all of
the information required to perform a proper accounting. There has yet
to be any verification of the amount of donations which have been
received and at this point in time, there is no way of ever knowing the
true amount. The May 11, 2001 statement says that there is a balance of
$4,376.49. The true amount of donations could easily be two or three
times that amount. There's just no way of knowing for certain.
However, upon comparing the figures made public on Sunday, June 10, 2001
with those provided to you by Mr. Whistler in April, we can make a
determination as to whether further investigation is warranted.
Mr. Whistler stated in his newsgroup response on Sunday, June 10, 2001
at 3:17 AM as follows:
"There is a separate "SATCO" bank account (a free account) that I have
had open for several years, for SATCO business, such as domain name, web
server, etc., expenses. This is the account that these donations were
deposited in. * * * "
Therefore, there is an admission that:
1. All donations went into this particular SATCO account; and
2. That the donation funds were commingled with other funds in the
pre-existing SATCO bank account.
How much of the May 11, 2001 balance of $4,376.49 is not donation
money? It's noted that on December 12, 2000, there is a balance of
$40.53. Is that the extent of the non-donation money? There is no way
to know for certain and its not readily discoverable based on the
information that is presently available. However, it should be noted
that this is the exact type of problem that a person runs into whenever
there is any type of commingling of funds. A person becomes liable for
the full amount of funds once commingling of assets takes place which is
why it is frowned upon by the law, standard accounting principles and
should be avoided at all costs.
Based on the information made available to me, I used the bank
statements provided over the weekend and the spreadsheet of Paypal
donations provided to you by Mr. Whistler in early May. I keyed in on
the deposits being recorded in the bank account.
There are two types of deposits on all of the statements. One is simply
listed as a "Deposit" and the other is a Paypal transfer. One other
type of deposit is listed on these statements and is dated April 17,
2001:
<TR FR xxxBLANKED ACCOUNTxxx- CBTKS.COM for $5.00>
This appears to be a transfer from another account at Commerce Bank &
Trust which is at the web address http://www.cbtks.com." TARGET=_blank>www.cbtks.com.
Typically on most bank statements, transfers are transfers into an
account from another account and deposits are just that -- either cash
or checks which are deposited directly into an account. These are basic
bank transactions with which we are all familiar.
PAYPAL Donations
==============
Based on the information provided, Paypal donation figures made public
by Mr. Whistler do not balance.
On April 30, 2001, you sent me a spreadsheet listing of server donations
made between December 19, 2000 and April 26, 2001. You subsequently
copied me on an email sent to you by Mr. Whistler on May 2, 2001 in
which he stated:
"I'm on my way out the door, but wanted to clear something up. The
spreadsheet I sent you is only partial. That's out of the PayPal
account. I was sending that out asking if it was what he was looking
for, trying to understand what he was wanting."
You have subsequently confirmed that the spreadsheet that Mr. Whistler
refers to in his May 2, 2001 email and the one you provided me on April
30, 2001 are one in the same. Mr. Whistler has also admitted that the
figures contained in that spreadsheet reference only those donations
received through Paypal.
You have also confirmed through your personal experience with Paypal
exactly how this service works. Paypal allows for collection of
payments made by credit cards over the internet and then transfers the
funds to a bank account of one's choosing minus a modest service
charge. These transfers appear on bank statements and are clearly
listed as such on the statements provided by Mr. Whistler.
Based on this information, I examined the Paypal donation information
which was provided by Mr. Whistler. He stated in his newsgroup post on
Sunday June 10, 2001 at 3:17 AM that until he separated out the funds in
late May, that everything went into this particular bank account for
which he provided statements. In addition, these statements clearly
reflect when a transfer is made from a Paypal account. The statements
show the following:
1. There were no Paypal transfers through January 19, 2001 shown in the
first two statements. The only thing that appears are two Paypal
credits on the January 18th statement totaling 23 cents. I did not
count these two credits.
2. On the February 12, 2001 statement, two Paypal transfers appear:
a. January 25, 2001 for $1,200.00
b. February 12, 2001 for $500.00
That makes a total of $1,700.00. However, the Paypal donation record
Mr. Whistler provided to you in the spreadsheet lists total Paypal
donations as of January 31, 2001 of $2,154.18. This is a shortfall of
$454.18 which should have been transferred from the Paypal account into
this account. I don't know how frequent or quickly Paypal transfers
occur but you have related that in your own personal experience,
international transfer of funds were completed within 48 hours. Since
Mr. Whistler stated that all donations went directly into the SATCO
account for which he provided statements, there is a shortfall of
$454.18 as of February 12, 2001.
3. On the March 15, 2001 statement, only one Paypal transfer appears:
a. February 23, 2001 for $300.00
4. On the April 12, 2001 statement, only one Paypal transfer appears:
a. April 2, 2001 for $60.00
5. On the May 11, 2001 statement, only one Paypal transfer appears:
a. April 20, 2001 for $50.00
That makes the total amount of Paypal transfers (per Mr. Whistler's bank
statements) of $2,110.00 ($1,700.00 + $300.00 + $60.00 + $50.00).
However, per Mr. Whistler's accounting to you of Paypal donations
through April 19, 2001, total Paypal donations should have been
$2,779.87. Therefore, the shortfall as of April 19th is $669.87. It's
also interesting to note that the total Paypal transfers to the SATCO
bank account as of May 11, 2001 do not even amount to the Paypal
donations through January 31, 2001 ($2,154.18) which Mr. Whistler
provided you in his spreadsheet.
In addition, Paypal deducts a fee for each transaction (the minimum
charge appears to be 30 cents and increases based on the amount of the
transaction). Not all of these service charges are even numbers, as is
reflected in the spreadsheet Mr. Whistler provided. Therefore, its odd
that all of the transfers were of even dollar amounts as opposed to
exact balances (pennies and all) which would have been in the Paypal
account. In order for a proper accounting to take place, all Paypal
statements (originals of course) should be provided.
Cash and Check Donations
==================
It has been stated that SATCO does not profit from its activities. In
the statements provided, there are several deposits noted. Note, at
this point, I'm not referring to the transfers from the Paypal account,
just those credits listed as "Deposits". I totaled all of these
deposits and they amount to $2,733.00. Since SATCO engages in no
activities which generate income and other than server donations, does
not accept money, then these deposits must be one of the following:
(a) Cash and check server donations received by Mr. Whistler; or
(b) Cash deposits made by Mr. Whistler out of his own pocket for
expenses; or
© a mixture of (a) and (b).
With regards to (b) and ©, proof of any deposits of money out of Mr.
Whistler's pockets would have to be verified by Mr. Whistler. In
addition, vouchers (ie. receipts) for out of pocket expenses would also
have to be provided. This is another byproduct of commingling funds.
The debits listed for this account on all of these statements total
$512.27. These debits are broken down as follows:
a. Checks
1. 01/03/01 Check #1018 for $ 10.67
2. 02/22/01 Check #1019 for $ 99.00
3. 03/08/01 Check #1020 for $ 70.00
4. 04/17/01 Check #1021 for $ 47.60
(Total checks = $227.27)
b. Transfers/Charges
1. 12/14/00 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 15.00
2. 01/02/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 25.00
3. 01/03/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $100.00
4. 01/09/01 Returned Item Charge for $20.00
5. 01/11/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 15.00
6. 04/09/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 50.00
7. 04/25/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 60.00
(Total transfers and charges = $285.00)
Total Debits = $512.27
Mr. Whistler has not provided the canceled checks so there is no way of
knowing to whom these checks were made payable. As I previously
mentioned, CBTKS.COM appears to be the internet banking arm of Commerce
Bank and Trust. The transfer records in the statements are showing that
monies were transferred out of this SATCO account to another account at
CBTKS.COM. Once again, there is no way of knowing where these funds
were used. The only thing for certain is that Mr. Whistler's statements
are showing a transfer of $265.00 ($285.00 less the $20.00 charge) from
this account to another unknown account at CBTKS.COM. Since Mr.
Whistler has stated publicly that no donation monies have been disbursed
for server expenses and has provided no proof in the form of vouchers or
canceled checks for these expenditures, each of these disbursements
comes into question.
Since donations were being made throughout the entire period accounted
for by these statements and there's been no proof presented that Mr.
Whistler has deposited any of his own personal money into this account,
then all of the $2,733.00 in deposits must be assumed to come from cash
and check donations received from donors to the server fund. Once
again, until evidence to the contrary is presented, this is the
conclusion which must be reached and is a direct byproduct of
commingling funds.
If these deposits are added to the net amount of Paypal donations which
Mr. Whistler provided in his accounting to you Harvey (through April 26,
2001), then total donation monies would be as follows:
$2,733.00 (Deposits) + $2,861.75 (Paypal Donations) = $5,594.75.
When this figure is compared to the balance shown on the May 11, 2001
statement ($4,376.49), there is a difference of $1,218.26.
Even if it's determined that the $512.27 of disbursements is comprised
of legitimate expenditures (being mindful that Mr. Whistler has already
publicly stated that none of the server donations have been expended or
otherwise disbursed), then there would still be a shortfall of $705.99.
Conclusion
=======
Given the following....
1. That bank records were not provided until June 10, 2001 (after
several months of repeated requests from several individuals including
yourself);
2. That of the bank records provided, there were no original statements;
3. That original Paypal statements which would show all account activity
were not provided;
4. That the summary of Paypal donations previously provided does not
balance with the recorded transfers from Paypal into the SATCO account;
5. That funds were admittedly commingled and proof of non-donation
deposits have not been provided;
6. That disbursements were made from this bank account by checks and
that canceled checks have not been provided; and
7. That transfers of funds were made out of this bank account and into
another undisclosed account and that vouchers establishing why these
transfers were made have not been provided.
...the accounting that has been provided by Mr. Whistler is far from
complete and it is very doubtful and almost a certainty that it would
not be accepted by a reviewing authority without additional original
documentation. Rather than providing answers, this accounting raises
additional questions which need to be addressed.
George S. Marinakis
At this time I would like to ask Randy 10 very pointed questions and hope to get
Full, True, and Plain Disclosure from Him.
1. What is the source of your scanned and posted bank statements and will you
provide the originals to me or a third party for analysis along with all Paypal
transactions both credits and debits from December 18, 2000 to June 1, 2001?
2. What is the name and the physical address of the bank at which the
account(s) to which you refer are held and is the CBTKS.com your personal
bank account that received transfers from the SATCO bank account?
3. Will you allow for an independent audit of these books by a C.P.A. to be
completed in the next 45 days, provided that said audit uses Generally
Acceptable Accounting Procedures as its basis, comes at _no cost_ to you or
SATCO, and that the report of which will be made public to all SATCO members?
4. Obviously Satco has expenses that occur on a regular basis, all though, no one that
I am awhere of has been reimbursed for any expenses.
In 5 months $512.27 was expended from this account. Since monies have been commingled
in this account, the membership should be informed as to what these expenses
are for and how much. Are you willing to explain these transactions and if you have
reimbursed yourself for expenses will you now do the same for others?
5. Paypal have been running a promotion for $5.00 for each new account that the account
holder helps to deliver. Since you show at least 82 donations made via a Paypal
account, there is a potential $410.00 in extra income. Have you accounted for
any possible referral bonuses in your calculations. If not would you care to declare
them now?
6. If there are compelling personal reasons that make any of these requests
impossible for you to comply with, what, if any, additional assistance will
you need in meeting compliance?
7. Is there some other compelling reason that you may not have access to an
accurate cash statement?
8. You have admitted in emails that some monies from the donations have been
spent. Would you please explain how much was spent and for what purpose?
9. Obviously more money has been donated than you have declared in the SATCO
account. How do you explain these irregularities in the SATCO and Paypal Accounts?
10. In recognition of the current state of affairs, and to provide for the
best potential for future direction and leadership of SATCO, will you
immediatley resign from your position as "CEO and Owner" and reliquinsh all
rights and privlidges to a board of directors duly appointed by the SATCO
membership? If no, why?
My final thoughts. I will never win a Pulizer prize for writing but I wrote from the heart.
Those of you who know me, will know that my comments come from me and no one else.
Wether you have a small club or a huge membership based organization, the accountability
MUST be there from its leadership. Seeing that even as far back as Jan-Feb there were questions
posted on the newsgroups from users, wanting some accountabiliby. It is my personal belief
that statements should have been provided, since the opening up of the Satco Account, to
the entire membership who wanted to see them. Hundreds of members have spent their own
personal funds and donated thousands of hours for the organization. They have provided their
own webspace, servers, bandwidth and any other costs necessary for the smooth running of SATCO,
and this has all been provided free of charge to anyone, and paid for by themselves.
I was informed that for the first 3-4 years, the SATCO webpages were provided by and funded
by Mr. Ray Jones. Oakcrest.com I believe. I remember asking Randy at the 2000 convention
"who is the SATCO lawyer?" He looked at me and smiled and said "I am." If you now have a
SATCO website for SATCO webpages, do you feel that you should be reimbursed by the
membership for your expenses when no one else is?.
Four days has gone into putting this timeline together. Over a hundred emails have been reviewed
to get an accurate statement. At least 30 hours has been spent on long distance phone calls. This is a
totally a new experience for me. A couple of people have contacted me, stating that maybe the reason
I am doing this is because I want to be number 1. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no
ulterior motive for my actions unless you consider full accountability as a motive. I do not. It is a
reasonable and necessary function of any group. I must say, that SATCO had given me a new lease
on life 5 yrs ago. Since that time, Judy and I have met the most wonderful people, Randy is included
honestly in that statement. I don't know what the future holds for SATCO or another organization
at this time, but I truly wish ALL members will see the reasons for me doing what I have done here now.
The bottom line. I, Harv Stein am accountable to every SATCO member, past, present, and future.
THANK YOU ALL. BLUE SKIES ALWAYS, Harv.
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