Hva skjer med SATCO?

[Gjest]

Har VACCN noen ofisiell utalelse om hva som foregår?

http://www.simflight.com/snn/forums.cgi?cmd=xover&group=simflight.satco-ivpa"'>http://www.simflight.com/snn/forums.cgi?cmd=xover&group=simflight.satco-ivpa" TARGET=_blank>http://www.simflight.com/snn/forums.cgi?cmd=xover&group=simflight.satco-ivpa

og http://www.Avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID27&conf=DCCon'>http://www.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID27&conf=DCConfID7"'>http://www.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID27&conf=DCConfID7" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID27&conf=DCCon fID7

og http://www.Avsim.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.Avsim.com

 

Arnt Kalseth

[ 07-06-2001: Endret av: Arnt Kalseth ]

[Bengt Sæther]

Har jeg skjønt dette riktig? Er det slik at SATCOS leder nå beskyldes for å ha forsøkt å profitere på SATCO? Og at skaperen av squakbox nå oppfordrer til boikott av SATCO?

Har bare skummet gjennom noen av innleggene på de nevnte sidene og sitter igjen med dette inntrykket.

Bengt [image]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/image]

[ 07-06-2001: Endret av: Bengt Sæther ]

[Gjest]

Han beskyldes også for å ha tatt de 3700 dollar'ne, som kom inn i donasjoner til drift av SATSERV serverne, og kjøpt en PC for pengene.

Som følge av dette så trekker folk seg fra leder verv i SATCO.

Jan Roar Rød

[Mathias Ganss]

Heisann.

Ganske harde beskyldninger dette.

Må følges opp og se om de er sanne eller ikke. Er de det blir man kanskje tvunget til å gå til aksjoner....

Men, jeg gjør ingenting før det er bevist.

[Roar Eli Sandøy]

Har ikke hatt tid til å sette meg fullt in i saken enda, men her er en quote fra en post på newsgruppen til SATCO, postet av Randy Whistler (SATCO1). Siden jeg bruker en newsagent og ikke www for å lese news så paster jeg den likegodt ut her [image]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/image]

----------------------------------------------------------

By now, I'm sure most of you have read the plethora of resignations that

have been posted here tonight, and many of you are wondering what's going

on, and rightly so. This is an organization of it's members, and you have a

right to know what is occurring.

I will not enter into a discussion with anyone about the merits or downsides

of any of the posted resignations, as each person has made a decision of

their own, based on their personal beliefs, and that should be respected.

The contributions of all of these people who have posted their resignations

tonight cannot be catalogued, and these people will be sorely missed.

People like these are few and far between, and they cannot be replaced.

Quoting from the AVSIM Front page:

"Unsubstantiated sources attribute Harvey's resignation to the lack of

accountability of donated funds to SATCO, and the use to which those funds

have been placed - no server or other contributors to SATCO have received

any of those funds. The latest information that AVSIM has is that those

donated funds total more than $3,700 USD. "

This is true, no server owner has bee provided any funding at this time.

This is due to the conditions placed on the server operators, by those

locations where the servers are located. Many are located at universities,

and the server owner CANNOT receive any compensation. Others are donated by

various companies or organizations with similar conditions. For those

curious, the donations page is available at http://www.satco.org/donations.htm,"'>http://www.satco.org/donations.htm," TARGET=_blank>http://www.satco.org/donations.htm, or from the main SATCO page. These

funds are being held currently, pending a determination of how best to

invest them on the organizations behalf. Again, more information is

available on the page listed above. I have been working closely with the

SATSERV group, trying to determine what course to pursue, but we have been

hesitant to move too quickly, lest we move in error.

"Those same sources have informed us that personal computers have been

purchased instead of contributing to the cost of providing servers and

bandwidth, and refusal to provide public accounting of the funds has taken

place. As just one very public indicator of things that have taken place and

which have gone unreported to the senior management of SATCO, there is an

online store, which you can access here, that senior management knew nothing

about, until it was pointed out to them by a member."

We have never refused to publicly account for any funds. I did not

anticipate some of the issues, true, and was surprised at some of the

questions, but once I understood the need and desires, I put into place the

donations page, and the process listed below. No PC's, or anything else for

that matter, have been purchased, nor will they be purchased, with the

donated money. SATCO has investigated bidding on several IBM PC704 servers

to use for the SATSERV system, but we have not placed any bid at this time.

Additionally, SATCO had considered providing T-Shirts, sweatshirts,

mousepads, and coffee mugs for the members via an online store at

CafePress.com, the address listed by AVSIM. We looked that the issues,

created the store, and even had the designs made and ready for sale. This

is true. However, we decided that it was not in the best interest to pursue

this venture, and terminated that venture. At no time was the store ever

open for business, nor had we notified anyone of the existence of the store.

We had decided, upon discussion with some other parties, that it was not the

course to pursue, and so we removed the items for sale, and closed the

store.

Now, to the allegations of impropriety with the donated funds. I do not

deny that we did not take into account some of the things we should have,

when we were first discussing receiving gifts from members. Poor planning

on my part, I cannot deny. There were many things that I should have done,

but at the time, quite honestly, it never even occurred to me. I've never

professed to be much of a businessman, and that is my fault alone. This is

the first time I have been involved with an organization that received gifts

from members, and I didn't have the knowledge that I should have.

However, once we were contacted and asked about the monies received, we

began looking into it further. This brings us to where we are today, in a

way. We have gone back to the beginning of donations, and transferred them

from the main SATCO business account into a separate account, where they

will be more easily separated. Once the statement for this account arrives,

it will be posted on the site for review by interested parties.

Regardless of any of the past issues, however, the simple fact of the matter

is that, through my unintentional ignorance, these things have escalated

beyond repair. In all issues, there is always some grains of truth, and

some other grains as well. However, as Executive Director, the operations

of the organization, as well as any other issues, fall squarely on my

shoulders. There can be no other place to point the finger. As one of the

USA's great presidents said long ago, "The buck stops here".

To the members and others, I do apologize for my actions that have caused

these people to act upon their beliefs. There is nothing I can do to change

things, and that is the simple fact.

 

With saddest regards and apologies,

 

Randy Whistler

Executive Director

SATCO

-----------------------------------------------------------

[Eirik Sørensen]

Det er ingen god nyhet at Harvey Stein nå trekker seg fra Satco. Han er en av grunnleggerene av denne organisasjonen og er en viktig årsak til at Satco er blitt hva det er i dag.

Men under slike forhold oppstår det alltid rykter og spekulasjoner. Jeg er overbevist om at alle fakta i denne saken snart vil komme på bordet. Inntil dette anbefaler jeg alle til å forholde seg med fatning til denne saken.

For øvrig er det lite sannsynlig at dette vil få noen som helst innvirkning på driften i Norge. Vi vil fortsette som tidligere uanfektet av denne uheldige, men interne konflikten i Satco.

Jeg vil poste mer informasjon så snart det er tilgjengelig.

Hilsen Eirik

[Roar Eli Sandøy]

Her under er det et spørsmål AVSIM med Tom Allensworth har sendt til Randy Whistler (SATCO1).

Skal ikke dra konklusjoner for dere, men kan jeg forholde meg til Randy Whistler sine uttalelser under, så har SATCO 100% min støtte

Det med > er AVSIM sine spørsmål, det uten er Randy sitt svar, håper det kommer greit ut under

---------------------------------------------------------

> -------------------------------------------

>

> We were going to hold off posting this until tomorrow. However, we are

> pretty confident that we are not going to get a response. Therefore, we

are

> posting it 24 hours in advance...

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but I most certainly will respond. This has

gone on long enough. To the users, I do apologize for the length of time it

has taken me to get this documentation to your review. Since late April,

our family has lost 3 family members, two to cancer and one to a heart

condition. These things, along with caring for my elderly parents, has

taken up a great deal of my time in the last few weeks. I will note that

Harvey and I agreed on a course of action on our about May 10. Due to some

of the above issues, I did not make this disclosure a priority. My family

comes first. This is supposed to be a hobby, and fun. I realize that this

should not have taken this long, but for those of you who have lost people

close to you, particularly 3 in a row, you can understand, I hope.

Additionally, my regular job takes up 10-12 hours per day of my time, plus

my second job 2-4 evenings as well. This severely limits my time for tasks

that were not priorities.

> Many in your organization have accused me, and AVSIM of course, of having

> antipathy toward you and that a personality clash exists between us that

> drives AVSIM's reporting about SATCO. To set the record straight, as I

think

> or hope you know, I have NO personal animosity to you what so ever. I have

a

> lot of concerns about your management style, and have told you so many

> times - as you also know. It is certainly no secret that I AND the senior

> staff of AVSIM had real problems with the way SATCO was managed prior to

our

> withdrawal of support from the organization over a year ago.

Well, a lot of those "management" issues have been resolved for quite some

time. Not personal? What do you mean not personal? Maybe it's not

"personal" to you, but I take it personally. Very personally.

My answers will be interjected between the interrogation.

<KANSAS CITY:

>

> Monies were contributed to SATCO for sponsorship of the first Kansas City

> SATCO conference. If what we have been told is accurate, there was over

> $2,500 collected from various organizations, including $200 from AVSIM.

> Because some 35-40 rooms were booked, the Holiday Inn provided SATCO the

> conference and meeting rooms at no cost. Attending members paid for their

> own room charges and meals. SATCO provided soft drinks. So, here are the

> questions regarding Kansas City:

This information is incorrect. SATCO paid for much more than just "soft

drinks". We paid for the van usage(it was supposed to be free), we paid for

veggie/sandwich trays in the small conference rooms, we paid for usage of

one of the small rooms(yes, the large room was free - not the smaller

rooms - though they were supposed to be). Additional charges were the use

of an overhead projector at the dinner and on Saturday, podium, etc. I

remember that SATCO(me) received a bill after the convention for almost $300

additional to what we had already paid. Some of the donated funds were also

used for the paper goods needed for the convention, etc. I would like to

give you a more detailed accounting of what happened then, but it has been

over two years ago that this occured, and I cannot remember the details now.

Perhaps I should have kept better records, but I didn't.

> * How much money was spent of these donated funds?

All money donated for the first convention in 1999 was expended on the

behalf of said convention to the best of my recollection.

> * How much money was left over of those funds donated?

To my knowledge, none. As I recall now, two years later, I personally had

to come up with the extra $300 we were billed after the convention.

> * What happened to those funds that were left over - how was the money

used?

See above.

> * Why did you refuse to provide an accounting of those funds when asked to

> do so?

When was I asked? Aside from one message in my Email on Friday, which I

responded to, I cannot recall ever being asked about any of the donated

funds from the first convention in 1999.

> PUBLIC DONATIONS:

 

> Members of the organization took it upon themselves last year to solicit

> donations to assist in defraying the cost of server operations and

bandwidth

> costs. As we understand it, approximately $3,700 dollars were donated in

the

> intervening period. Also as we understand it, none of these funds have

been

> conveyed to any server host. So, the questions:

>

> * Please confirm our understanding that no funds have been provided to the

> server operators. Is this in fact, the case?

This is true. When Jonathan Reid and Mike Hayden were bringing up the SE

USA server, I was in contact with Jonathan about providing him either the

product, or reimbursing him for products/software purchased. We discussed

purchasing the LINUX OS, or some hardware items he would need, such as hard

drives. However, after I spoke with Mike, he and Jonathan decided not to

accept any of the donated funds at that time. I do not recall if a reason

was given, though none was required. To date, no other server owner has

requested any assistance from the server donation funds.

> * Did you require that all funds gathered by donation be sent to you,

> instead of to an alternative account established by those setting up the

> donation system?

I don't recall "requiring" them to be sent to me. If my memory serves me

correctly, during discussion with Ron Lemke and Mike Hayden, I expressed my

opinion that, if funds were to be donated in the "SATCO" or "SATSERV" name,

then I thought it was appropriate to have them in a SATCO account. I do not

recall knowing that Ron had set up a separate account for these donations,

but that does not mean they didn't tell me and I forgot it. At the time,

having the funds in a SATCO account seemed to be the best idea. Upon

retrospect, I wish we would have let Ron and Mike deal with it. One other

reason why I thought using the SATCO account was the right thing, was so we

could use a service called PayPal that I had just found out about.

> * Did you commingle those funds with your personal savings/checking

accounts

> or did you create a separate account for those funds?

There is a separate "SATCO" bank account(a free account) that I have had

open for several years, for SATCO business, such as domain name, web server,

etc., expenses. This is the account that these donations were deposited in.

The donations, however, were not separted out until late in May, after my

discussions with Harvey. Once again, hindsight is 20/20 and I should have

opened a separate account or let Ron handle it. That was a bad decision on

my part, but it's done and there's nothing I can do about that now. The

only "commingling" that has occurred is the use of my PayPal account to

accept credit card donations. Once again, on retrospect, this probably

should have been a separate account, but as mentioned above, it did not

occur to me that there was any issue or regard here. I should point out as

well that no one else suggested separating them into their own accounts,

though if I had been cognizant of Ron's separation, it might have dawned on

me.

> * Starting as early as December last year, requests were placed in the

> newsgroups asking for an accounting of those funds. In the early days of

May

> of this year, senior staff members asked for an accounting. Throughout

this

> roughly seven month period, no definitive accounting of those funds has

> occurred. Why?

If anyone wanted to know anything about the donations, they should have sent

me an Email like Jim Davis did in April(if I remember right). Once Jim sent

the message, though I disagreed with it, I spoke with Harvey and we

established a process that was agreeable to Jim. While I was aware of the

discussions in the newsgroups, I did not take them as valid requests.

Perhaps a bad choice, but done nevertheless.

> * One, possibly two, senior staff members volunteered to pay their own way

> to Kansas City to help you straighten out the accounts and provide a

public

> accounting. You rebuffed their offers of assistance. Why?

Harvey and I had discussed how to proceed with this process. The members

who volunteered were SATUSA staff, not senior staff members, though they

both have been around for a long, long time. It was a judgement call that

we would provide the accounting in the process Harvey and I agreed upon.

> * Would you be willing to provide a NOTORIZED bank slip, that is

verifiable

> by an independent entity, that accounts for the donated funds?

Harvey, who has left SATCO, has agreed through a third party to review the

bank statements that I will be mailing him. I should explain here also, the

original process Harvey and I discussed and agreed to. I was to obtain the

bank statements, separate the donations, and establish a new separate

account for the donated funds. Once that was done, I would forward those

statements to Harvey for review. After his review, he would return the

statements. I must admit that I did not work as rapidly on this perhaps as

hindsight would indicate now that I should have, but as explained at the

top, my family issues came first.

If, for whatever reason, you feel that Harvey is not trustworthy enough to

independantly verify these statements, please let us all know who you think

would be.

> * If some or all of these funds have been spent, what have they been spent

> on?

None of these funds have been expended at this time. Phil Dowling and I

have been trying to figure out how to distribute them adequately, so that no

one would end up violating any service agreement they might have with

whomever hosts their servers. We have not struck on a decent solution as of

yet, though one was being considered just before this all came about.

 

> * If you cannot or will not provide an accounting to the SATCO community,

> would you be willing to tender your resignation from SATCO and relinquish

> all rights to its name?

I have sent a message to the HQ staff to review the pages I have created and

posted with the scanned statements, showing the current status of the SATCO

account. However, at this time(probably due to the hour), I haven't had any

response yet. I hope to hear from staff very soon, but those pages can be

reviewed at http://www.satco.org/donationsba1.htm."'>http://www.satco.org/donationsba1.htm." TARGET=_blank>http://www.satco.org/donationsba1.htm. The SATCO Executive

board will decide how to proceed with the organization.

> JOE JURECKA'S POSITION:

>

> As you know, Joe has posted a very strongly worded message to the AVSIM

> forum, which was subsequently copied over to the newsgroup. As we both

know,

> the INTENT from the very beginning of PC/SB and the SERVER software was

that

> the SERVICE remain free. From those of us that were there in the early

days,

> it was always understood that any organization providing hosting would do

so

> at no cost. A philosophy that was clearly stated numerous times in those

> early days, and subsequently re-enforced by Joe, Jason and Marty and again

> by Joe in the AVSIM forum. That has been the INTENT from the first day

that

> SB/PC and the SERVER software became available.

SATCO provides the membership interface between the users, who use PC or SB,

and the server owners. The service is now, and will always, remain free to

the end users. From what I know, those people hosting the servers at this

time are doing so at no cost to anyone but themselves. SATCO provides no

hosting services other than database administration, membership and web

sites. I am aware of his intent, and do not believe that has been violated.

> * Do you support that intent and will you continue to support it?

My views have not changed. SATCO does not profit from anything related to

the servers, SB, PC or the hobby. There is no cost now, there will be no

cost in the future(while I have anything to do with it, any way).

> * Do you agree that accepting donations, is a violation of that intent?

I am not an attorney, so I cannot give a legal interpretation, but from my

best information from legal counsel, as well as many other people within the

organization, I do not believe we have violated the End User Licensing

Agreement(EULA) that is posted in relation to SB, PC or the server packages,

nor the intent. SATCO itself is not an end user of SB, PC, or the server

software. We do not provide any server boxes, all of the servers are

privately owned and the licensing belongs to the owner of that box, not

SATCO. In the same manner, the SB/PC EULA belongs to the individual user,

rather than to SATCO. SATCO does not provide the SB/PC software the users

operate anywhere on it's website, though there is a link to the developers

group. While most of our users are using copyrighted, licensed programs

like MS FS, PS1, ATP, or FLY!, PP and the like, these licenses belong to

that user, not to SATCO. This is the interpretation I was given when I

asked. I was concerned then that there might be some conflict, but upon

conversation with some server owners, legal counsel, and others within

SATCO, we believed there would be no conflict. If the donations were in

violation of any EULA, our information was incorrect.

> Randy, no pabulum, no spinning, just give us the facts please. The people

> within SATCO are deservedly proud of what they have accomplished. If the

> numbers I hear are correct, some 35 to 40 thousand users of the service

> deserve your forthright answers to these questions, and they deserve them

> quickly. I would caution you by saying that this time, this situation

isn't

> going to just go away by silence, spinning or refusing to answer the

> questions. If I do not receive answers to these questions by 6:00 P.M. EDT

> on Sunday, June 9th, I will interpret that as a refusal. I will then post

> this message in its entirety to both AVSIM and the newsgroup for the

> community to assess and judge accordingly.

You may read whatever you want to into this message. I cannot control

thought processes. These answers are honest and truthful, and are the facts

as I can best explain them. I have tried to provide as much information as

possible, as candidly and truthfully as possible. I may not have done it to

satisfy someone else's time frame, but I have done the best I could, given

the circumstances. Harvey left the organization partly due to my failure to

communicate things with him, and I take that blame. I cannot speak for

Harvey, nor for why he has left the organization, but I suspect that my lack

of communications skills contributed to his departure.

SATCO is also embarking on a refund process at this time, though all the

details are not completed yet. Those who donated via PayPal will be

refunded via PayPal, minus any handling fees out of SATCO control. Those

who donated via check or money order will be refunded in like manner, with

fees deducted if applicable. Once this process is completed, then SATCO

will NEVER accept any support from it's users again. The donation process

was intended originally to assist the server owners/providers with needs, or

to provide another server box if possible. Obviously that will never

happen.

SATCO is now much larger than I had ever envisioned it and it keeps growing

at an astronomical rate. This is one reason why the new SATCO management

structure will be governed by a board of directors, who will make the

decisions. This board is still in it's formative and developmental stages,

but it promises to be something that we can all be proud of.

SATCO USERS: you have my apologies for allowing this to drag on as long as

it has. However, I do have responsibilities outside of SATCO that must, at

times, take precedence over the hobby, and your needs. I think the

executive board is hopefully a way to ensure this will not occur in the

future.

--

 

Regards,

Randy Whistler

Executive Director

SATCO

-----------------------------------------------------

[Roar Eli Sandøy]

Og her er endelig Harvey Steins begrunnelse. Ingen kommentarer fra min side - jeg må la dette synke inn litt først, og se hvor det bærer hen. Denne her er lang, men de som har lyst kan lese.

det kan forresten og leses på avsim sine forum på denne http://www.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&omm=0&om=626&forum=DCForumID27" TARGET=_blank>URLen

--------------------------------------------

"Harvey Stein Responds"

<< This document was received from Harvy Stein in Email at 17:21 EDT today>>>

-----------------------------------------------------------

Good Day Users.

First I want to say that Tom Allensworth got some and confirmed allot of his information from me. He kept true to his word by not making my name public at the time, but I cannot let him take heat for information that was printed and was confirmed by me.

Let me start off by saying that Randy and his wonderful wife Sherry have and still are (hopefully) friends of ours. The most difficult part of this situation is that the four of us have a personal friendship and Randy and I had a "business" relationship at Satco. Let me assure you all that everything I say here now can be backed up by documentation if necessary. I have been in touch with several of the persons with whom I have had contact with in this matter and so far only one has asked not to reveal his name or information. That is fair enough to me and I will abide by his wishes. I will attempt to give you a timeline of events based on the emails sent and received. I will not post these emails but you will have to take my word that they exist. There is some personal information in some of these emails that does not have anything to do with this situation. I will make them available to a neutral third party for verification if necessary.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I have never publicly accused Randy of anything and I am not accusing him of anything now. I am just giving a timeline of events and some questions I would like answered. This may help those of you who want to know why I resigned from Satco.

Since March of 2001 I have received many questions on the status of donations while online. My stock answer was, Randy is taking care of them and will report when any money is dispersed. I would point them in the direction of the Satusa donation site. As more questions came in I got to thinking, why haven't we seen an accounting of donations. At that point in time, several members chatted me online asking where to donate. I suggested to them to hang on to their donations at this time as I was working on a "project". Other staff members were also getting questions and answering them the best they could. On April 25, 2001 a staff member and I were chatting on PC and the subject of bank statements came up. We started comparing notes and came to the conclusion that Randy had to provide documentation to the users. It was the only way to stop the questions.

Randy received an email on this date and included in the email was a request that the donation records be made available to some Satco HQ staff members for 1. To verify the records and 2. To take alot of the responsibility off of Randy's shoulders. It was suggested that keeping business records in one persons hand is not a good practice. On Thursday April 26, 2001 an email was received with a response.

Here is a link to download the excel spreadsheet provided to me by Randy. The names and any identifying information has been removed but all comments from the donors are there.

http://members.home.net/jastein/satco_donations.htm"'>http://members.home.net/jastein/satco_donations.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://members.home.net/jastein/satco_donations.htm

The response included some comments from Randy stating " I find it odd, that out of the few who have donated, none of them to date have asked for any type of information." I should, at this point, state, that at least 80 donations were made based on an excel spreadsheet provided to me by Randy. On this sheet, only

Paypal donations showed up. A further comment stated was "They have been satisfied so far with the explanations I have posted. Once we expend the funds, then that information will be posted for people to see. However, as I have explained several times, we have not expended any significant amount yet." I was led to believe that NO money has been expended.

On Friday April 27 2001 I received an email from Randy. The initial comment was " It's obvious that these free-will donations all came with strings. Sometime in the next day or two, I will be pulling the account data that the funds are stored in, and will send them to you, so you can verify that the funds are in fact, in place and holding. FWIW, I am sending you a copy of the file. It is a download of the account where the funds are being held. Thought you might like to see that."

Further on Friday April 27 2001 another email exchange was made. In this exchange with another staff member who was also questioning the accounting the final line from Randy is. "I am forwarding copies of the bank statement to Harvey for review. Perhaps that will solve the concern." As of this date, no statements have ever been made available to me at anytime, except the items posted by Randy for download.

A final email was exchanged on Friday April 27. Since I wrote it there is nothing but the recipients name removed and a couple of lines with comments I prefer not to make public.

" I've opened up the file Randy sent. On the donation web page it shows donations to Jan 16, 2001 of about 3,000 dollars. Yet this chart that Randy sent only shows donations up to Jan 16, 2001 of 1448.00 Dollars. Harv.

PS. He is sending me only the last bank statement. Not sure why I can't see them all !!.

PSS Oops, almost forgot. He is considering putting me on cheque signing authority. His comment was,

the users all trust you but its obvious they don't trust me."

During the next 5-6 days there were many emails passed back and forth from various staff members and others who had been asked questions. In my opinion nothing of any real significant information.

On Wed. May 2 I received an informative email from Randy giving me reasons why his bank says that 2 signature accounts are not an option for "non-profit organizations" anymore because of costs involved and is only offered to large accounts. From what I knew Satco was never registered as a non-profit organization. Randy goes on to say that every quarter or 6 months he would gather up what ever transactions have occurred, photocopy them and send them to me for a review. I struggled with a quarterly report and a 6 month report was out of the question. I really wanted a monthly report. Further information on the possibility of having to pay professional fees was talked about for Satco. Later on in the day more emails were exchanged and I was getting totally frustrated because Randy was not dealing with my questions. He was dancing around my issues. I was asking for statements and records; not why we couldn't have a dual signature account.

Finally on May 2, 2001 I sent this email to him. My frustration was at its peak. Complete email except for a XXXXX in reference to another member.

From:

Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>

Organization: SATCO

To: Randy Whistler <rwhistler@kscable.com>

References: 1

Randy, what I need now is the banking records from the day the donations were started to now. Honestly, there are some discrepancies in the document you sent me. On the donation page which was last updated on Jan 18, it shows approx. 3000 dollars donated. On the page you sent me it shows approx. 2950 less fees. That would lead me to believe that there have been no donations since Jan 18 and yet your sheet shows approx. $1270.00 donated between Jan 18 and Apr 26. I can't explain that no matter how I look at it. I honestly don't think XXXX started this. If he received the emails from his members that I have received then there is a lot of questions that have to be answered. My own thoughts are, any member in good standing deserves the right to see the records. Everyone knows about donations but no one has seen any reconciliation of the "books".

Words only go so far, what people want is documentation and I have to agree with them. The longer this goes being unresolved the more questions are going to be asked. I have no problem putting my name and reputation on the line if I'm convinced that everything balances to the penny. I will go to the users and state that I am satisfied with the accounting being done and will verify all monies are accounted for. You may ask why the users come to me. Well its because I'm always there for them and they are comfortable talking to me. They know I won't betray their trust. There is allot of talk out there and allot of users are getting hyper over the lack of accountability which goes along with any organization. I myself have been asked to account for the dollars as most feel HQ shares all information. As you know I have no information other than what you have shared with me. If you want I can open a SATCO account here. There is no charge for this and dual signature cheques are not a problem. The records will be available to any member that wants them and I can post the monthly statements where ever you want me to. Would it be a problem for you to photocopy and fax or scan all your copies of the SATCO bank statements and send them to me since the beginning of the donations? I would hope its not a problem. We can look at other options after the membership has received documentation. As your Deputy Director I should be involved in all matters

of SATCO including this. Randy, now please understand, this has NOTHING to do with our personal friendship, it is strictly SATCO business.

Hugs to Sherry and Megan,

Harv.

Randy responded to me shortly afterwards with this email dated Wed May 2, 2001

Subject:

RE: Banking stuff

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:12:16 -0500

From: "Randy Whistler" <rwhistler@kscable.com>

To: "Harv Stein" <harveys@home.com>

I'm on my way out the door, but wanted to clear something up. The spreadsheet I sent you is only partial. That's out of the PayPal account. I was sending that out asking if it was what xxxxx was looking for, trying to understand what xxxxxxx was wanting. You have to understand another thing. I have kept records, but there is a lot of traffic on the SATCO account that does not reflect the donations issue, things that I have put money in for to pay for things that have no exposure to the donation issue.

I never envisioned there would be any problem and so did not separate them out, as I probably should have. As you can see, this complicates things significantly due to the mixed nature of the traffic. While I don't have any problem with the donation issue, I do not see that it's anyone's business how much money I have put into the organization. If you have any ideas how to sort that out, then I'll be happy to hear it. I'm working on that, though, so maybe I'll come up with a solution between now and then. FWIW, our offices are moving now, so I don't have ready access to a FAX machine like I used to. I have to go to the other building to send a FAX, and haven't had time to get there yet. . . . . . I can scan stuff and send it to you if you like. Otherwise, it will be snail mail or FAX when I can get access to the machine. Do you think that we should no longer accept donations? Quite frankly, I do not think that what little has been gained has been worth the effort, hassle and trouble. . .

Will write more later. . gotta run now.

Randy

Again Randy had promised to send me documentation of some sort but nothing has ever arrived. At this point in time a couple of emails were sent out to other members asking for the paypal button and the mailing address for donations to be removed from the donation site and to suspend the receipt of any donations at this time. In another email Randy agreed to call me so we could talk about this situation rather than pass emails all over cyberspace.

This next email on Wed May 2, 2001 was my comments to another staff member who was involved in this situation.

Other than the name xxxxx out everything is as it was.

Subject:

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:24:37 -0400

From: Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>

Organization: SATCO

To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxx here is Randy's response. It seems we are at an impasse. Not looking good and I don't know where to go from here. He has admitted to taking money out for his "own" expenses. Gee I wonder how much money we are all "owed" for "expenses" over the years. The only answer seems to poll the users and find out how much was donated to the best of our ability. If you want to back out, I fully understand.

Harv.

Wed May 2 2001 My response to Randy's email regarding the

partial donation list and a suggestion and

an agreement with Randy's suggestion.

Subject: Re: Banking stuff

Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:10:06 -0400

From: Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>

Organization: SATCO

To: Randy Whistler <rwhistler@kscable.com>

References: 1

Ok no prob on the partial donation list. Maybe we should just refund all donations to all donors on your list and be through with it. Then this nonsense will stop. That would clear the books. We can also as you suggested stop all donations which I think is a great idea. When ever money gets involved there are always problems. Get back to me when able.

Harv.

Thurs May 3, 2001 Randy and I played phone tag but I received an email from him attempting to answer my questioning of the approx. 3000 figure that the paypal spreadsheet he sent me was showing. I honestly at this point I couldn't figure out quite what Randy was saying but here is the email. A couple of personal lines have been omitted that do not figure into the situation.

RE: Banking stuff

Date:

Thu, 3 May 2001 14:39:30 -0500

From:

"Randy Whistler" <rwhistler@kscable.com>

To:

"Harv Stein" <harveys@home.com>

OK, I'm an idiot. . .I misread your message. I thought it said you would be IN your office between 2 and 4. . not UNTIL 2. . my bad. . . that's what I get for trying to read too quickly and assuming I knew what you said. So, for now, I'll go through here and answer some of the questions posted here, so you can have more information. I'll be in my office till later this afternoon if you get back, if not we'll touch base tomorrow. On the donation page which was last updated on Jan 18, it shows approx. 3000 dollars I don't maintain the donation page,

Ron Lemke does. I have passed him updates as they occurred and the number posted on that page accurately reflects the dollars received, but not the date it was updated. I cannot explain that any further. Keep in mind, also that the approx. $3,000 showing on that page probably reflects the non-cash donation made by Mike Hayden. I don't know how much he spent getting the SE USA box online and operational, but I suspect it was at least $500. That figure was included when I sent the update to Ron, as I recall, but I don't remember now. I have sent Mike, Ron and xxxx a message (copied you also) asking them to remove the donation information from their pages. No response has arrived as of yet, and last I checked the pages had not been altered either. I understand what you're saying about the members seeing the records, but I don't agree that anyone should be able to. Those who have donated, OK, that I can see, but just someone who wants to pry, no. However, that is just a personal feeling that I bear, so that won't stand in the way of progress. Now let's talk about the donation process. There are two methods, by P.O. Box or by PayPal, which you know. When this whole

thing first started, at the time, someone asked if there was a way to donate. I cannot remember who now, I talked to so many people. May have been Mike, Ron, xxxxxx, or any number of other people. When this first came up, I had already been using PayPal personally for auctions and sales on the Internet. It was an easy way to pay for things you bought on places like EBay, etc., without having to fight with money orders, cashiers checks, etc. It was also an easy way to accept payments from people I sold things to, since I didn't have to fight any of the BS involved with payments. Worked out very well. As you and I discussed last year also, it would be an easy way to accept the banquet fees for the convention, without going through the hassle you and I did for the last two years. When this thing came up, someone asked about how those with CC's could donate. At that time, I said we didn't have a way to accept them. Someone mentioned PayPal, and the thought dawned on me that I could use the account I had set up. . . did not even think it through any further, just thought I had it all set up and ready to go so didn't think any further at all. Any checks/money orders/whatever that came in were

deposited directly into the SATCO account, the same one where I pay the web site billing, legal fees, etc., out of. When checks were received, we deposited them into the account and did not record who they came from or the amounts they were for. I'm not sure if there is any way to go back and try to determine where those checks came from. I do have some records on that, but they will be sketchy at best. That's my bad again, it never dawned on me that this would become some sort of issue at all. I thought that people who were sending in

money were being generous, helping us out so we could have some funds to make things happen when needed. I should also point out that I have very little experience with accepting donations or any non-profit fund raising. . .During the course of this whole thing, it never even dawned on me that we should split out any donations received into separate accounts, or I would have done that long ago. I suppose I'm a little too trusting, because I thought that people who were donating were trying to help out and understood the situation, but that's my bad call. I should have never accepted them at all. As soon as I have time, and can get everything together, I am going to start the refund process. This will take some time, as I have to sort through a lot of crap to figure out who has donated what, particularly the checks. I will have to sort out the banquet fees we've received and deposited in the bank, as well as the fees that are in PayPal for banquet payments, and get them moved out so they aren't affected. Once that's done we'll begin refunding donations I guess. I knew the donation thing was way too good to be true. Once again, those of us who pay for this entire organization are stuck with the costs, regardless of what they are and who incurs them. Yes, I'm hurt by this whole thing. I guess really crushes me is the whole thing. This is the same crap we went through with JD and Allensworth last year around this time. . . .We'll talk about this tomorrow. I'm really depressed with this whole thing, Harv. I thought we were doing something good, not bad. Granted I didn't have a clue what to do or how to do it, and I probably did a lot of things wrong. This is just another situation like all the rest, not unlike the convention planning. Lots of people saying what we should do, how we should do it, etc., but when it comes down to actually helping out, there is no one there.

Randy

At this point in time I was frazzled. I needed documents from Randy. He had told me in several emails that statements and other paperwork would be coming. I went over and over the emails over the past couple of days. Finally I had had enough. Below is my final email to Randy. My frustration was at its peak and you can see that in my letter to him.

 

Subject:

Re: Banking stuff

Date:

Thu, 03 May 2001 18:20:56 -0400

From:

Harv Stein <harveys@home.com>

Organization:

SATCO

To:

Randy Whistler <rwhistler@kscable.com>

References:

1

Ok bro, here is the solution. Open up another SATCO bank account marked donations. Simple to do.

Take all the money that was donated and is sitting in your other account(s).

Deposit this money into the new account named Donations. There is now a clean bank statement showing the donations.

You should have an accurate record from Paypal knowing how much was deposited for donations as the money for the convention just started coming in and can easily be separated out. All the rest should be from donations as I'm not aware of any other sources of funds coming in. We can find out approx. how much in cheques came in. Take the cheque total and the paypal total and deposit it into the new account. Now there is no personal information to be revealed. I don't know of any money that has been spent so far, therefore all monies accounted for. Only a couple hrs of work tops. Make sense. ? If you have spent some of the funds for God sake let someone know. The biggest problem is secrecy. That is causing a large part of the problem now as I see it. I never gave this any thought until I started getting questioned on it and then my wheels started turning. I would think, why isn't Randy sharing any info with me

or us at HQ. This is SATCO money not Randy money. I would continue to think, why is it so difficult for Randy to produce the statements if he wanted to. I had no answers until this came up. There is a moral issue here as well. Its an element of trust. Trust between you and us (the users). If that trust is betrayed in any way then our purpose here is over. That money you have received was for server purchases as stated on the donation page. If you bought a server for satco then all the other server owners who donate their boxes should be given xxxxx number of dollars as well. I was always under the

impression that everything was voluntary and no one was to be reimbursed for anything unless SATCO came into some large amount of money, then all server owners or web pages hosters share equally. For every hour you have put into SATCO I can match it. I want nothing but the satisfaction of knowing I did the best I could for everyone. If I could not afford the money or the time to participate then I wouldn't. I personally feel left out of alot of things you do. Why I'm not sure. There should be nothing you do for SATCO that I'm not included in, that's what a Deputy Director is for. A quick phone call or an email saying xxxxxxx. You may have started SATCO but there are many of us that have just as much of a vested interest in SATCO as you do, me included.

I'm really troubled by all this as none of this was necessary had you shared all information with us. You are just as accountable to all users as we are, even more so. I was pissed before, now I just want to leave.

Harv.

 

That was the last email I sent to Randy. He called me later on the phone and we talked for at least

an hour maybe two hours. Obviously I cannot document that phone call but I can try my best to relate it to you.

There was some family chit chat and some pleasant conversation and then we started to talk about the donations. Randy is a wonderful talker but I was in no mood to listen. I wanted results and not excuses. Randy again told me that the donations came with no strings attached and I told him that donations always come with accountability attached. I talked about morality, trust of the users, and Randy agreed. We talked about how the "little club" has grown into 45,000 registered users. He tried to explain why he did not include me in many issues. I was the new Dep Director on the block and he had to get used to me and my personality being there. Ray and I are totally different people. We again talked about opening up a totally new account named Satco Donations and depositing all the money that was shown on the paypal statement plus the cheques which Randy figured was around 500.00 dollars. I told him it would take 10 minutes to open an account, deposit the money in the account and get a deposit slip and post it on the webpage for all to see. I would have been happy with that and hopefully the users would have as well. At that point I offered myself to come to Topeka and sit down with him and go over the books. He laughed and said we could find better things to do than "do the books". I was serious and he was joking. I strongly suggested to Randy that he bring all books, statements, documents etc. to the convention so that anybody there could see a total accounting. He thought that was a great idea and agreed. Near the end of the conversation I was feeling a bit more confident that statements would be either faxed or sent to me via snail mail as he said he would do again. Until I resigned which was about a month after this phone call, nothing was forthcoming to me either by fax, mail, email scanned docs, downloads. Nothing.

At no time was I made aware that there were deaths in his family. I would have thought that he would have sent all his HQ staff emails to that effect, just so that they could "look after the house". Towards the end of May I received a link showing the Cafe.com site where Randy was setting up a store to sell T shirts Mugs etc. No one told me that is was not in place yet. I even clicked on the purchase link and the checkout link. All were active. Since I had not heard from Randy in almost a month I figured he didn't want to talk to me anymore so I just gave the link to others for opinions. I was livid. It looked like Randy was going to sell this stuff and just pocket the money for himself. I figured we ALL built Satco, why should one person profit from it. Another staff member contacted me and said he knew about the site and he was asked to view it for content and ideas. I don't think any other HQ member knew it existed. This other staff member was talking to Randy and then he called me. He told me that Randy admitted that the site was for profit only and that profit was strictly Randy's.

Again I have no docs to back this up, only the memory from the conversation. Should the member who told me like to come forward and confirm this statement, please do so. If not, I understand.

Five weeks go by and no communication from Randy on this matter and nothing received in

any fashion with regards to documents or statements.

The day of resignation was like any other day. Wed June 6, 2001. I was playing with my grandson Tyler on the computer and received an email from Randy asking me if I told xxxxxx about what we had discussed. After a month goes by and now I get an email from Randy asking this question. I went ballistic.!! Here we are a month later and NOTHING has been received by me in any fashion from Randy and he had the gall to ask me if I told someone about "our arrangement". Of course I did. This gentlemen had sent another request to Randy for information and wanted to know when things were going to happen. That was it for me. I couldn't get anywhere with Randy. I was at a total standstill, I had done everything to try and get him to produce some verifiable documentation for over 5-6 weeks and Nothing. The rest is history.

In conclusion I would like to say, Randy you have always been a friend and I hope our friendship can continue in some way. These issues are strictly business. I needed answers and got nothing. I didn't want talk anymore I wanted action. I read the comments from the users. A young lad donates 10.00 and apologizes for not being able to donate more !!! Another young person donates 3.00 dollars. All the money he had. It broke my heart to see these people giving up their dollars and now I couldn't get a proper accounting of that money. Someone has to look out for their interests and "watch over them" I took the lead as I should have, being the Deputy Director. I had to protect them. Maybe its the Father in me, I just don't know. Judy and I have 4 healthy grown sons and our grandson Tyler. I would only hope that if they were in the same position as these young people and others alike that someone would watch

over them and "protect" them as well.

A professional looked over the bank statements that you posted and here is his remarks.

He has no problem giving his name and title. George Marinakis Attorney at law.

I solicited from Richard Jenkins Managed Care Financial Analyst

and from Jonathon Reid University Student some questions that may

help clear up this matter.

Harvey,

I saw the announcement that bank statements were posted showing all

transactions taking place from November 14, 2000 through May 11, 2001.

I have downloaded these statements and have gone over them carefully.

My first observation is that they are unlike any official statements

that I've ever seen. The statements don't contain the name of the bank

at the top and there's no logo of any kind. I can't recall a bank, from

huge regional and national banks to the smallest of savings and loans,

which did not personalize their statements in some way with their name

or logo--much like any company would do with it's letterhead. Utilizing

"letterhead" and official stationary is one way to ensure the

authenticity of a document. If anything, these statements appear to be

a quick summary of an account--much like the summaries which you could

obtain from a branch manager. If that is the case here, then that

raises further questions as to why original statements were not

provided? It is common practice to maintain bank statements for record

purposes, oftentimes for years. In this instance, original statements

were not provided for the account even as recently as a few weeks ago

(May 11, 2001). These documents just don't look right and would

certainly not be acceptable statements to any type of reviewing

authority.

As we have discussed on numerous occasions, another problem with these

statements is that on their own, they don't prove or disprove anything.

The reason why is that Mr. Whistler has had exclusive access to all of

the information required to perform a proper accounting. There has yet

to be any verification of the amount of donations which have been

received and at this point in time, there is no way of ever knowing the

true amount. The May 11, 2001 statement says that there is a balance of

$4,376.49. The true amount of donations could easily be two or three

times that amount. There's just no way of knowing for certain.

However, upon comparing the figures made public on Sunday, June 10, 2001

with those provided to you by Mr. Whistler in April, we can make a

determination as to whether further investigation is warranted.

Mr. Whistler stated in his newsgroup response on Sunday, June 10, 2001

at 3:17 AM as follows:

"There is a separate "SATCO" bank account (a free account) that I have

had open for several years, for SATCO business, such as domain name, web

server, etc., expenses. This is the account that these donations were

deposited in. * * * "

Therefore, there is an admission that:

1. All donations went into this particular SATCO account; and

2. That the donation funds were commingled with other funds in the

pre-existing SATCO bank account.

How much of the May 11, 2001 balance of $4,376.49 is not donation

money? It's noted that on December 12, 2000, there is a balance of

$40.53. Is that the extent of the non-donation money? There is no way

to know for certain and its not readily discoverable based on the

information that is presently available. However, it should be noted

that this is the exact type of problem that a person runs into whenever

there is any type of commingling of funds. A person becomes liable for

the full amount of funds once commingling of assets takes place which is

why it is frowned upon by the law, standard accounting principles and

should be avoided at all costs.

Based on the information made available to me, I used the bank

statements provided over the weekend and the spreadsheet of Paypal

donations provided to you by Mr. Whistler in early May. I keyed in on

the deposits being recorded in the bank account.

There are two types of deposits on all of the statements. One is simply

listed as a "Deposit" and the other is a Paypal transfer. One other

type of deposit is listed on these statements and is dated April 17,

2001:

<TR FR xxxBLANKED ACCOUNTxxx- CBTKS.COM for $5.00>

This appears to be a transfer from another account at Commerce Bank &

Trust which is at the web address http://www.cbtks.com." TARGET=_blank>www.cbtks.com.

Typically on most bank statements, transfers are transfers into an

account from another account and deposits are just that -- either cash

or checks which are deposited directly into an account. These are basic

bank transactions with which we are all familiar.

PAYPAL Donations

==============

Based on the information provided, Paypal donation figures made public

by Mr. Whistler do not balance.

On April 30, 2001, you sent me a spreadsheet listing of server donations

made between December 19, 2000 and April 26, 2001. You subsequently

copied me on an email sent to you by Mr. Whistler on May 2, 2001 in

which he stated:

"I'm on my way out the door, but wanted to clear something up. The

spreadsheet I sent you is only partial. That's out of the PayPal

account. I was sending that out asking if it was what he was looking

for, trying to understand what he was wanting."

You have subsequently confirmed that the spreadsheet that Mr. Whistler

refers to in his May 2, 2001 email and the one you provided me on April

30, 2001 are one in the same. Mr. Whistler has also admitted that the

figures contained in that spreadsheet reference only those donations

received through Paypal.

You have also confirmed through your personal experience with Paypal

exactly how this service works. Paypal allows for collection of

payments made by credit cards over the internet and then transfers the

funds to a bank account of one's choosing minus a modest service

charge. These transfers appear on bank statements and are clearly

listed as such on the statements provided by Mr. Whistler.

Based on this information, I examined the Paypal donation information

which was provided by Mr. Whistler. He stated in his newsgroup post on

Sunday June 10, 2001 at 3:17 AM that until he separated out the funds in

late May, that everything went into this particular bank account for

which he provided statements. In addition, these statements clearly

reflect when a transfer is made from a Paypal account. The statements

show the following:

1. There were no Paypal transfers through January 19, 2001 shown in the

first two statements. The only thing that appears are two Paypal

credits on the January 18th statement totaling 23 cents. I did not

count these two credits.

2. On the February 12, 2001 statement, two Paypal transfers appear:

a. January 25, 2001 for $1,200.00

b. February 12, 2001 for $500.00

That makes a total of $1,700.00. However, the Paypal donation record

Mr. Whistler provided to you in the spreadsheet lists total Paypal

donations as of January 31, 2001 of $2,154.18. This is a shortfall of

$454.18 which should have been transferred from the Paypal account into

this account. I don't know how frequent or quickly Paypal transfers

occur but you have related that in your own personal experience,

international transfer of funds were completed within 48 hours. Since

Mr. Whistler stated that all donations went directly into the SATCO

account for which he provided statements, there is a shortfall of

$454.18 as of February 12, 2001.

3. On the March 15, 2001 statement, only one Paypal transfer appears:

a. February 23, 2001 for $300.00

4. On the April 12, 2001 statement, only one Paypal transfer appears:

a. April 2, 2001 for $60.00

5. On the May 11, 2001 statement, only one Paypal transfer appears:

a. April 20, 2001 for $50.00

That makes the total amount of Paypal transfers (per Mr. Whistler's bank

statements) of $2,110.00 ($1,700.00 + $300.00 + $60.00 + $50.00).

However, per Mr. Whistler's accounting to you of Paypal donations

through April 19, 2001, total Paypal donations should have been

$2,779.87. Therefore, the shortfall as of April 19th is $669.87. It's

also interesting to note that the total Paypal transfers to the SATCO

bank account as of May 11, 2001 do not even amount to the Paypal

donations through January 31, 2001 ($2,154.18) which Mr. Whistler

provided you in his spreadsheet.

In addition, Paypal deducts a fee for each transaction (the minimum

charge appears to be 30 cents and increases based on the amount of the

transaction). Not all of these service charges are even numbers, as is

reflected in the spreadsheet Mr. Whistler provided. Therefore, its odd

that all of the transfers were of even dollar amounts as opposed to

exact balances (pennies and all) which would have been in the Paypal

account. In order for a proper accounting to take place, all Paypal

statements (originals of course) should be provided.

Cash and Check Donations

==================

It has been stated that SATCO does not profit from its activities. In

the statements provided, there are several deposits noted. Note, at

this point, I'm not referring to the transfers from the Paypal account,

just those credits listed as "Deposits". I totaled all of these

deposits and they amount to $2,733.00. Since SATCO engages in no

activities which generate income and other than server donations, does

not accept money, then these deposits must be one of the following:

(a) Cash and check server donations received by Mr. Whistler; or

(b) Cash deposits made by Mr. Whistler out of his own pocket for

expenses; or

© a mixture of (a) and (b).

With regards to (b) and ©, proof of any deposits of money out of Mr.

Whistler's pockets would have to be verified by Mr. Whistler. In

addition, vouchers (ie. receipts) for out of pocket expenses would also

have to be provided. This is another byproduct of commingling funds.

The debits listed for this account on all of these statements total

$512.27. These debits are broken down as follows:

a. Checks

1. 01/03/01 Check #1018 for $ 10.67

2. 02/22/01 Check #1019 for $ 99.00

3. 03/08/01 Check #1020 for $ 70.00

4. 04/17/01 Check #1021 for $ 47.60

(Total checks = $227.27)

b. Transfers/Charges

1. 12/14/00 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 15.00

2. 01/02/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 25.00

3. 01/03/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $100.00

4. 01/09/01 Returned Item Charge for $20.00

5. 01/11/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 15.00

6. 04/09/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 50.00

7. 04/25/01 Transfer to Unknown Account at CBTKS.COM for $ 60.00

(Total transfers and charges = $285.00)

Total Debits = $512.27

Mr. Whistler has not provided the canceled checks so there is no way of

knowing to whom these checks were made payable. As I previously

mentioned, CBTKS.COM appears to be the internet banking arm of Commerce

Bank and Trust. The transfer records in the statements are showing that

monies were transferred out of this SATCO account to another account at

CBTKS.COM. Once again, there is no way of knowing where these funds

were used. The only thing for certain is that Mr. Whistler's statements

are showing a transfer of $265.00 ($285.00 less the $20.00 charge) from

this account to another unknown account at CBTKS.COM. Since Mr.

Whistler has stated publicly that no donation monies have been disbursed

for server expenses and has provided no proof in the form of vouchers or

canceled checks for these expenditures, each of these disbursements

comes into question.

Since donations were being made throughout the entire period accounted

for by these statements and there's been no proof presented that Mr.

Whistler has deposited any of his own personal money into this account,

then all of the $2,733.00 in deposits must be assumed to come from cash

and check donations received from donors to the server fund. Once

again, until evidence to the contrary is presented, this is the

conclusion which must be reached and is a direct byproduct of

commingling funds.

If these deposits are added to the net amount of Paypal donations which

Mr. Whistler provided in his accounting to you Harvey (through April 26,

2001), then total donation monies would be as follows:

$2,733.00 (Deposits) + $2,861.75 (Paypal Donations) = $5,594.75.

When this figure is compared to the balance shown on the May 11, 2001

statement ($4,376.49), there is a difference of $1,218.26.

Even if it's determined that the $512.27 of disbursements is comprised

of legitimate expenditures (being mindful that Mr. Whistler has already

publicly stated that none of the server donations have been expended or

otherwise disbursed), then there would still be a shortfall of $705.99.

Conclusion

=======

Given the following....

1. That bank records were not provided until June 10, 2001 (after

several months of repeated requests from several individuals including

yourself);

2. That of the bank records provided, there were no original statements;

3. That original Paypal statements which would show all account activity

were not provided;

4. That the summary of Paypal donations previously provided does not

balance with the recorded transfers from Paypal into the SATCO account;

5. That funds were admittedly commingled and proof of non-donation

deposits have not been provided;

6. That disbursements were made from this bank account by checks and

that canceled checks have not been provided; and

7. That transfers of funds were made out of this bank account and into

another undisclosed account and that vouchers establishing why these

transfers were made have not been provided.

...the accounting that has been provided by Mr. Whistler is far from

complete and it is very doubtful and almost a certainty that it would

not be accepted by a reviewing authority without additional original

documentation. Rather than providing answers, this accounting raises

additional questions which need to be addressed.

George S. Marinakis

 

At this time I would like to ask Randy 10 very pointed questions and hope to get

Full, True, and Plain Disclosure from Him.

 

1. What is the source of your scanned and posted bank statements and will you

provide the originals to me or a third party for analysis along with all Paypal

transactions both credits and debits from December 18, 2000 to June 1, 2001?

2. What is the name and the physical address of the bank at which the

account(s) to which you refer are held and is the CBTKS.com your personal

bank account that received transfers from the SATCO bank account?

3. Will you allow for an independent audit of these books by a C.P.A. to be

completed in the next 45 days, provided that said audit uses Generally

Acceptable Accounting Procedures as its basis, comes at _no cost_ to you or

SATCO, and that the report of which will be made public to all SATCO members?

4. Obviously Satco has expenses that occur on a regular basis, all though, no one that

I am awhere of has been reimbursed for any expenses.

In 5 months $512.27 was expended from this account. Since monies have been commingled

in this account, the membership should be informed as to what these expenses

are for and how much. Are you willing to explain these transactions and if you have

reimbursed yourself for expenses will you now do the same for others?

5. Paypal have been running a promotion for $5.00 for each new account that the account

holder helps to deliver. Since you show at least 82 donations made via a Paypal

account, there is a potential $410.00 in extra income. Have you accounted for

any possible referral bonuses in your calculations. If not would you care to declare

them now?

6. If there are compelling personal reasons that make any of these requests

impossible for you to comply with, what, if any, additional assistance will

you need in meeting compliance?

7. Is there some other compelling reason that you may not have access to an

accurate cash statement?

8. You have admitted in emails that some monies from the donations have been

spent. Would you please explain how much was spent and for what purpose?

9. Obviously more money has been donated than you have declared in the SATCO

account. How do you explain these irregularities in the SATCO and Paypal Accounts?

10. In recognition of the current state of affairs, and to provide for the

best potential for future direction and leadership of SATCO, will you

immediatley resign from your position as "CEO and Owner" and reliquinsh all

rights and privlidges to a board of directors duly appointed by the SATCO

membership? If no, why?

 

My final thoughts. I will never win a Pulizer prize for writing but I wrote from the heart.

Those of you who know me, will know that my comments come from me and no one else.

Wether you have a small club or a huge membership based organization, the accountability

MUST be there from its leadership. Seeing that even as far back as Jan-Feb there were questions

posted on the newsgroups from users, wanting some accountabiliby. It is my personal belief

that statements should have been provided, since the opening up of the Satco Account, to

the entire membership who wanted to see them. Hundreds of members have spent their own

personal funds and donated thousands of hours for the organization. They have provided their

own webspace, servers, bandwidth and any other costs necessary for the smooth running of SATCO,

and this has all been provided free of charge to anyone, and paid for by themselves.

I was informed that for the first 3-4 years, the SATCO webpages were provided by and funded

by Mr. Ray Jones. Oakcrest.com I believe. I remember asking Randy at the 2000 convention

"who is the SATCO lawyer?" He looked at me and smiled and said "I am." If you now have a

SATCO website for SATCO webpages, do you feel that you should be reimbursed by the

membership for your expenses when no one else is?.

Four days has gone into putting this timeline together. Over a hundred emails have been reviewed

to get an accurate statement. At least 30 hours has been spent on long distance phone calls. This is a

totally a new experience for me. A couple of people have contacted me, stating that maybe the reason

I am doing this is because I want to be number 1. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no

ulterior motive for my actions unless you consider full accountability as a motive. I do not. It is a

reasonable and necessary function of any group. I must say, that SATCO had given me a new lease

on life 5 yrs ago. Since that time, Judy and I have met the most wonderful people, Randy is included

honestly in that statement. I don't know what the future holds for SATCO or another organization

at this time, but I truly wish ALL members will see the reasons for me doing what I have done here now.

The bottom line. I, Harv Stein am accountable to every SATCO member, past, present, and future.

THANK YOU ALL. BLUE SKIES ALWAYS, Harv.

 

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